Yancey Strickler is a writer and entrepreneur.
He is the cofounder and former CEO of Kickstarter, the author of This Could Be Our Future: A Manifesto for a More Generous World (Viking), and the creator of Bentoism.
Yancey is a Distinguished Fellow at the Drucker Institute, and has been named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum, one of Fortune’s “40 under 40,” and one of Fast Company’s Most Creative People.
He’s spoken at MIT, Stanford, the Museum of Modern Art, Sundance, Tribeca Film Festival, Web Summit, and at startups, nonprofits, companies, and schools around the world.
Yancey co-founded the artist resource The Creative Independent and the record label eMusic Selects.
Yancey began his career as a music critic in New York City and grew up on a farm in Clover Hollow, Virginia. He lives with his family in Vancouver, Canada.
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Nicole Holland 0:06
Hey there conscious creator, I'm your host Nicole Holland. Thanks for joining me for another episode where we're exploring how to do life more on your own terms through entrepreneurship and alignment. I believe that each and every one of us has the unlimited ability to create and experience a life full of passion, joy and abundance. Through this podcast, it's my intention that you will find inspiration to support you in stepping up and into your bigger vision. The Nicole Holland show is brought to you in part by Meaningful Mentorship, my dynamic experiential program for 30 to 50 something entrepreneurs who are ready to leave their current status quo behind and consciously create a more meaningful, fulfilling and Purpose Driven Life for themselves and their loved ones. To learn more visit MeaningfulMentorship.com. Please be mindful that this podcast is marked E for explicit because from time to time, we may use language or discuss topics that are not intended for little ears. And now, let's dive in to today's episode.
Oh, I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest today. Yancey Strickler is a writer and entrepreneur. He's the co founder and former CEO of Kickstarter, the author of this could be our future a manifesto for a more generous world and the creator of mentalism. Yancey is also a Distinguished Fellow at the Drucker Institute and has been named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. He's one of fortunes 40 under 40, and one of fast company's most creative people. He's spoken at MIT, Stanford, the Museum of Modern Art, Sundance Tribeca Film Festival, web summit and at startups, nonprofits. companies and schools around the world. Yancey co founded the artist resource creative, independent and the record label e music select. Yancey began his career as a music critic in New York City and grew up on a farm in clover hollow Virginia and lives with his family now in Vancouver, Canada. Yancey, thanks so much for joining us.
Yancey Strickler 2:22
Thank you, if I knew I would have to sit here for it, I would have sent you something much shorter.
Nicole Holland 2:28
No, what's funny is I do look for shorter BIOS and and sometimes usually I do edit them. But honestly, there was like nothing I could take out of this. I loved it. I thought it was so fabulous. And it's it. It's important that we say all of those things because for those folks who haven't heard of you before, and are just learning about you, like you're so dynamic and you've done so many different things. And so I would love to start Back in clover hollow and ask you about that like growing up. What was it? What was your first like spark of entrepreneurial ism?
Yancey Strickler 3:12
Well, I don't think I was entrepreneurial growing up, I was always a, I was a writer, I was an artist, you know, I was writing sci fi stories and composition notebooks in fourth and fifth grade filling, you know, many volumes with a single story. And so I think writing was mostly where that happened. I had a Xen in high school. And yeah, you know, my stepfather is a mechanic who ran his own you know, garage and so I was and I worked on a farm that working farmers work so I was surrounded by self employed people by entrepreneurs. But I myself was a bookworm. You know, and I love music. And, and so, you know, my my poor Entrepreneurship was solely by just the perfect Venn diagram of it being a business that lined up with all of my other interests, right? Like I mean, as a creative person, me as a, me as a writer, me is someone that ended up being kind of a curator, starting a record label, being a music predictor, kind of a curator. And so those were those were the skills I was finding early on. And and then it's, again, as a high schooler, you know, college student, of course, all adults are like, do you know how to do anything useful? You know, all you do is read and you write things that, you know, every once in a while, I really knew a lot about music and movies, but like, one of those things is the job. Exactly. And so it was a lot of soft skills, that were just things that I naturally gravitated towards. And you know, just thinking things would work out somehow. Not drink sure how but they did. They did. So yeah,
Nicole Holland 4:57
let's talk about that. Then because coming from I'm somewhat familiar with the area that you grew up in, and it is a smaller area. It's not like, you know, the, the big city. And so how did we go from where you were at and the life you were living to being a music critic in New York City, you
Yancey Strickler 5:19
know, where I grew up on the farm in the country. It's real Appalachia. And but the great thing is that there's a college town nearby, there's Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Virginia, which just means that there was there was a good bookstore and there was a good record store. And, and so for me, those things are both downtown and I would hang out downtown as a kid and you know, starting about the age of 12, or 13, would go into those stores. And I just looked up to the people who worked there. So much of it was just like the people that worked there. I could tell they were cool, and I want it to be cool. So I just did what they seem to like, and there were honestly multiple years of me saving my money and buying CDs all of which I hated. But like Bush, the guy that worked at the record store was so cool. And he would tell me to get them and I, you know, I knew that bush was cool. And I, I could recognize that the one in the wrong here was me. And that I had to have this this patience, but I was really just modeling myself on people that I looked up to. And I looked up to people for a lot of different reasons. You know, I was a very strong, devout evangelical Christian, and there were elders in my church that I looked up to, and, and so a lot of it was just modeling myself. On what on what seemed like that's where I want to be. So I think it was first just aspirational and just having a natural curiosity. And and especially, you know, reading so much in the pre in the early internet era, you know, you you read just to find out the names of artists and musicians because it's so hard to even know like, who is a musician, you know, what's a band and like, how do you Know what those things are. And so you just read to glom information to learn to expand how you see the world. I went to college in Virginia at a school called William and Mary. College was fine. It was fine. I did a lot of writing. I made good friends. I did like radio station stuff. But moving to New York was, uh, you know, during college, I was kind of a townie I it wasn't where I grew up, but I I worked there in the summers and I was the night manager of a days in I was a mover for many years, you know, I just had just shit jobs that I still look at, like those working experiences as being some of the best of my life and, and wasn't really sure where that was going to take me and then when I graduated college, my best friend from high school randomly called and said, he and a group of five people have gotten a house and Brooklyn and Coney Island, and there's an extra bedroom and could I be there, you know, by the end of the week, and Because it was such a instant, instantaneous choice, I said, Yes. I'd had time to think about it. I think I would have talked myself out of it because I'm, I'm a risk averse person in many ways. But I've just like, yeah, this is when you do these kinds of things. And so it's just a total leap. A total leap now not knowing how how it would turn out. And to be honest, my first couple years in New York, I was fairly miserable. But the trick of New York is that if you go there, you are immediately too broke to leave. You're just trapped. You're just trapped there. And so and eventually, I came to love it. And then learning, learning to have skills in the big city, for me, as someone who grew up on a farm brings you a lot of confidence, a lot of excitement. And I lived in New York almost 20 years and love it very much.
Nicole Holland 8:47
Well, and so what were some of those things that early on, during those couple of years of just really being too broke to leave. But you're learning so much, what were some of those things that You can pinpoint help you get, or helped you transition into the direction of where you're at now, or, I mean, maybe you already had it right? I just like,
Yancey Strickler 9:11
No, I think there were a couple. I think there were a couple things main one is that I really wanted to be a music critic. And until I started sending pieces of writing on spec, which just means you're, you're, you're not being assigned, but you're just sort of pitching a gold started sending pieces on spec to several editors, but I had to go through this process of like, finding out who those people were spending time thinking about what to pitch and, and that was like, in a way, maybe the most entrepreneurial thing I'd ever done, because it really is just trying to hustle something up and and I got such great feedback and that the couple of first times I did this at work, it worked and so that was just such a great you know, just just a great cycle. But I think the big change was I got laid off by my job. I got a job working for a big company. It was a small company got bought by big company that owned a lot of radio stations Clear Channel and they had layoffs and I got laid off and and which was tough it almost a year of being unemployed and then got a job
got a job with a small company called flavor pill that was like an email newsletter business listing events. And and I got hired at the bottom of the ladder. But it was such an open company and very much a startup that within six weeks I was, you know, co leading many things with you know, a wonderful woman Jocelyn gli who'd been running things for a while. And just like just being in this open environment where you could just make an impact through caring and working hard. That was just really rewarding and and a lot of what was initially challenging for me was that for me as a creative person to be good inside a company to be good in a meeting to care was like made me feel worried. It felt like I was As a trader, to myself a little bit because the divide between being a business person and being a creative person was so strong, so strong and if you work in a company where you're the editorial person, like, you know, the marketing people are thinking about things differently than you and you get your, you get your story of resentment and, you know, whatever these things happen, but I had to confront this fact of being good at something that I didn't intend to be good at, which is like organizational thinking, and but found it fun and and found that actually applying my skills as a writer and as an as a thinker, to those spaces was just as rewarding and you could have this amazing impact. And so that was really kind of an entrepreneurial experience. And, and that, that turned into another role, which, you know, and Kickstarter happened to not long after that, but I you know, I was, I was quite, I was fortunate to have jobs and not amazing companies, but companies that where I could have enough freedom and responsibility to take some risks to fail in a way that, you know, could never be that bad. But even after a Kickstarter, you know, there's there's three, three co founders of Kickstarter. And the other two co founders had been full time on it for over a year. Before I was before I quit my job to join because I had, you know, I, I had these other projects going that I was proud of, and yeah, so it's, uh,
Nicole Holland 12:27
how did you come together with them? Like, how did Kickstarter start? What was the inspiration?
Yancey Strickler 12:33
Yeah, the inspiration was had by Perry Chen. And Perry was living in New Orleans in 2001 2002 and wanted to throw a concert and was going to have to front about $20,000 to make it happen. And instead, he thought, what if I proposed the idea for the concert online, and people put up their credit cards, but no one is charged money. The show sells out. And that way he wouldn't have to bear all the risk and responsibility. It could be a collective decision. So he had that idea in. Oh 102. And we met in 2005. And he had moved back to New York where he was from, and we met at a restaurant where he worked waiting tables, and I was regular. It was just, it was a very cool spot, and, and we became friends over bonding over basketball. And one night, he said, hey, I've had this idea I've been thinking about and, and so we hung out later that night, and he had me sign an NDA, and then, and then share this idea. That was the idea for crowdfunding. And my initial reaction was to say, I didn't like it was to say, this reminds me of American Idol. And, you know, this is like, 2005, Reuben stuttered era. And, and, you know, and I'm like, we don't need people voting on culture. You know, we need we need curators to have You know, be more empowered, etc. And, you know, and, and just Perry responded by saying like, but think about the person who lives in a place where no one around them gets what they do, but they have like their internet niche, like we're thinking about internet nice people. And, and and that, you know, that was much more clear to me. And so immediately we began talking about well, you know, I love I love you know David Lynch i would i would prepay for any David Lynch movie and, and it was around this time of thinking about the way fans could step in and have a greater say in what happens with the cultural, you know, the cultural experiences they love. Around that time arrested, development was getting canceled, and it was the first time it was getting canceled. And so we had this idea of what if we tried to use this idea we have a Kickstarter to save Arrested Development. And Perry had gone to college with a cousin of one of the stars of the show David Cross who plays by US, UK On the show. And so Perry met with David to pitch him on the idea of using Kickstarter to save a rest of development. David very patiently explained that we clearly didn't know how the entertainment business worked, and that there's no way anyone would go for this. But out of that, he became Kickstarter, his very first investor. And the earliest backers of the company were many of them were artists who saw this challenge of, if I try to go get an idea funded, I'm having to prove to some executive or some label owner that what I do is going to be a hit, that they're going to make a lot of money on me doing this. And, you know, maybe sometimes projects have that kind of motivation. But for most artists, for most creative people, the goal is not to get rich, it's to manifest the idea in your head so that it feels right that it sounds right. And that whatever happens after that is the kind of gravy that you hope for but isn't the purpose of what you're doing. And so they connected with the idea of a unit universe where ideas can be funded just because people wanted them to. And, and so that that was really what was motivating us was a, a place where creative projects and from the beginning was just creative project where creative projects could be funded, simply because a community of people wanted them to exist, not because they had the potential to be profitable for someone else.
Nicole Holland 16:22
Amazing. And obviously, that took off quite well. And I dare I say, really changed the landscape of how we as a society, look at funding. Now. I think at the beginning, you know, like you, people would go, Well, you know, I'm not I don't really understand that. Now. People use crowdfunding for all sorts of different things, all sorts of different endeavors. And it's a it's a normal part of our society now, kind of like this post COVID error. Everybody knows what it is. But for the last years, nobody had any idea. And I think that what you guys did really had such an impact on our society and on the way people interact and the way people decide how to spend their money.
Yancey Strickler 17:18
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, I was really as it started to take off. Like, I kept waiting for someone to come knock on our door and it would be like five people in suits with clipboards, just to double check that we're all good, you know, and, and I just had this sense that there was some structure and order to the world. And, and as we began having such a big impact and and, and people really were buying into it, and it was really changing behavior. I, I had an initial feeling of almost panic because it just it made me uncomfortable that the world could change that easily. Because I just I jumped to this thought of like, well,
if it was like this for us, then maybe most things are like this. And maybe a lot of things that to me seem like deep self evident truths are just things that we just stopped questioning. And, and I, I really did have a feeling of fear. Just just experiencing that because it just didn't fit how I thought things were supposed to go. Eventually I became more comfortable with that, and and then and then just really want to define ways to communicate that feeling to others. Because it's a powerful it is a powerful realization. And I've seen Steve Jobs give a great quote about it before about like, realize that people made the world before and no smarter different than us. And there is a moment that you kind of realized that And, and it does, it just makes you see the world, the world quite differently. But, but the degree to which I mean, the way the Kickstarter grew was very interesting because we, we really limited access to it, we made it to where for you to be able to launch a project, you had to be personally invited by us or, or creator already connected to Kickstarter. And so as a new thing, we created a feeling of scarcity. And it was interesting to be on the platform. And, and what that also meant was that it was really validated community by community relationship by relationship. I remember very vividly a couple months in, there hadn't been many dance projects to date. And, and suddenly there was like an Indian classical dance project. I believe it was in Chicago. It was the first one like it that we'd seen. I knew every project I looked at every project before they went by. And within a week, there were like 10 more minutes. And classical dance projects from all around the country. And what I saw in that was, Oh, these, this first creator, they sent out their project to their network. That network includes other people who do this, them getting informed about it from someone that's already in their community, it gives them a form of kind of validation. And here's how the spreads and and really we always we, you know, we just always saw Kickstarter growing and that kind of way it was community by community validation, and all based on the platform serving real utility and being useful. It's just being like incredibly useful. Here's a way to get money to do things. Here's a way to gather people do things and, and just that wasn't possible before. As strange as that as it is to think of that. And so basically, I feel like Kickstarter, built a door where no one knew a door needed to build be built. But yeah, they're absolutely needed to be one. And and there is maybe an inevitability of this idea happening. But I think that, yeah, it's just experiencing and seeing it from, you know, from early on to now, really, really shapes how you see the rest of the world too.
Nicole Holland 21:16
Amazing. Yeah, it. I mean, it really has changed the world. And so I have so many questions. I could ask you around this, but I want to also be aware of the time and I'd love for us to get to kind of your next endeavors as well. So, you know, how did the book come to be? And what did you do from Kickstarter? Like, how did you leverage that to more of what you wanted in your life?
Yancey Strickler 21:43
Well, I stepped away I stepped down as CEO. Three years ago, almost exactly. And that was after 10 years, full time in the last four years I CEO. And yeah, I was tired and I was I wasn't sure what I was going to do. And and I felt a bit confused because you know you for a decade you, you base your identity off of a job, right and of course it's more than a job to say it's a job is to put it to small but if you define yourself in that kind of way and then you lose that you have this moment of like, well who you know who is just the ANC? You know, I know who Kickstarter guy is, like, I've been that guy, but who is this other person? So I am, I ended up using a lot of the same kind of corporate brainstorming tools that I would use and leadership. For myself. I filled a notebook up with like, what are my weaknesses, what are my strengths, what's every project I've ever done before and coming up with different ways of ranking these things and using them to generate possible next steps in my life. And out of this to the week long process, there are these five potential life paths That I saw I was like be a journalist, again, be a teacher turn a side project into a company at the other to add the following week, I woke up each day, and I pretended to be that job to have that job. I didn't, I can talk myself into anything. But I wanted like my body to tell me so like that Monday, I woke up and pretended I was a freelance journalist and I spent the day researching stories who I was going to pitch them to writing a piece on spec, you know, just living that life again. And, and it was when I spent a day writing this on the idea of writing a book and working on trying to kind of share the same feeling I'm talking about of seeing the world as it truly operates and trying to empower people with that. Both that knowledge and that feeling. The day I spent doing that I could just tell was was right For me, and and so I sort of let my body guide me and to find the right answer. And so I began working on this book. And, and the book is in the first half is about it's called this could be our future, a manifesto for a more generous world. And the book, the first half of the book is about kind of what I observed as a CEO and what I've observed in the world around us, which is a culture that has been increasingly overtaken by belief in money and financial value. And I argued that the book operates according to I argued that the world operates according to a hidden default, that the right choice in any decision is whichever option makes the most money. And this belief in financial maximization is this implicit decider in every fork in the road, and and first, I show that this idea hasn't been around forever. It's about 50 years old, the 1970s. This came to pass. So we might think that it's always been this way it hasn't and I give lots of evidence for that. And then the second After the book, I introduced a new philosophy in a way where I think we should build. Because I, you know, I'm optimistic about human beings and, and, and I think we're all doing the best we can with what we know. So the question is always well, What don't we know? What don't we know that could be useful? And, and for me thinking hard about that question and thinking hard about a lot of what I experienced in the business world. I came to feel that the two key realizations that we can make are one is to redefine how we see our self interest. And second is to redefine how we can how we define what's valuable. So for self interest, we tend to think of our self interests as what we want, right? The second what what we as a person want to need, you know, self interest is you go get yours I go get mine. And the modern world is really built on this assumption. And yeah, We sort of visualize this as like a hockey stick graph of a line going up into the right.
And and Adam Smith's notion of capitalism is that you can you can trust a person to operate according to their self interest and that of a world based on trust and self interest is one that could operate, you know exceptionally well. The challenge the problem is that we've we've settled on this very narrow definition of self interest of now me. And in the book, I introduced a philosophy that argues our self interest is more expansive than that, that our now me is is in our self interest. Absolutely. But so his future me, future me as the older wiser version of ourselves, the person that we want to be the person that we hope we become, that person becomes true, or not true everyday based on our choices. There's also now us, the our family, our friends, the people that we care about. And there's also a future us, our children, if we have them or everybody else's. Children if we don't. And so we can actually think of there being four distinct dimensions of our self interest now me, future me now and future us. every choice we make leaves a footprint and all of these spaces. And yet today we're blind to everything other than now me. And so when I first had this idea, I visualize it as like a little two by two matrix, a simple four squares a box. And next to it, I wrote, what is this a graph? What is a picture of and I wrote down beyond near term orientation. This is a, this is a framework for how to see beyond the near term, you're seeing the future you're seeing one another. And I realized that that that description was an acronym for bento. And I thought, Oh, this is a bento box. The Japanese packed lunch that has four compartments and a lid that lets people carry a variety of dishes without anything getting spoiled and letting you have a diverse meal. And the bento also honors a Japanese dieting philosophy on Hata Hachi bou, which says The goal of a meal is to be 80% full that way, you're still hungry for tomorrow. So bento ism is the same idea but for our values, our choices and our self interest, a way to not just indulge on now me, but to leave space and to create explicit room to think about our future selves and other people. And so this this transition from a now me and as selfish, individualistic, short term oriented world to a worldview that is more expansive, and that says, You know what the future is part of our rational decision space in what the interests of others are a part of our self interest. that I believe is what starts to enable a very different world because our choices look quite differently. Once you expand your perimeter in that kind of way.
Nicole Holland 28:48
This is fascinating.
This is amazing. I, honestly, I'm like just so drawn in, I'm going I don't have any questions. Just keep talking. But I also am aware that the time is coming to where we need to start wrapping up. So how inspiring now where can people go get your book and and learn more
Yancey Strickler 29:12
book is available, you know, all the places books are available. There's there's an audio book of me reading it for 10 hours if you are into that. You know, Bentoism.org is a website that teaches you the model. And it's a it's an amazing website. I made it with my friend Laurel Schwartz, and it feels like going to a spa we intentionally built it to where everything moves at like 80% speed. So it's a place you can just relax and reflect. I do a lot of events. I do three events every week for anyone interested in bento ism, and one is called the weekly bento and there we go through different exercises to embody our different dimensions of ourselves. So I will create a meditation Where have you will close their eyes and look straight ahead as if we're looking into the mirror of now me stock of ourselves, we tilt our heads up and imagine we're looking up at the space of now us and I tell people to picture their family, their friends, their co workers, everyone that's important to them and to cram them all together on a couch. And that everyone's laughing at how silly it is to all be together. And at that moment to take a Polaroid. And then look at that picture and see those people. Those are your us. And so we scan their faces in our minds and just sort of see those people and recognize the future us we imagine that same Polaroid but 20 years from now, you know, the young people in the photos are scarily bigger. Some of them have their own kids. Some people have disappeared from the earlier photo. But we look at that picture and recognize that those people, their lives are affected by decisions we make right now. And finally, we look at future me, the older, wiser version of you and I ask people to imagine the future Salt and pepper version of you, you're wiser, your skin is more wrinkled. But you smile that future future me smiles at you with such warm, they feel such compassion for you, they know that you are trying to do your best, in the same way that you look upon your 13 year old cell, someone who is struggling in a hard world. That's how your future he looks at you. And so we we sort of live in a spaces and then we write and reflect and journalize them and use those voices to generate what it is that we want to do. And we're always thinking in a seven day horizon, what do we want to do in the next week, because you know, our values our goals can be things that sit on a shelf, they can hang on a wall, or they can be things that you're doing every week, and and it's not easy to do them every week. It takes practice it takes muscle memory. And you know, I view the bento as just a reflection even for me Of how short I fall of my own desires for myself, that I need a tool to help me live up to who I want to be and who I most deeply AM. And that, for me, the bento is the simplest thing I could think of and and has been like really useful to me on a day to day basis to ground my decisions in meaning, right to have a notion of future me and future us to have a sense of a destination puts you so far ahead of everyone else around you because everyone else is trapped in this passive now me view, right and most people struggle to think beyond the next 48 hours. And so to have any notion of a plan gives you such an advantage. And it allows you allows every decision that you make every decision even if it seems unrelated, it can make allows you to make every decision be coherent with this larger purpose. And so everything you're doing even things you don't want to do, you are building you are building the version of You experience that you want to have, you can do it on your terms, even even things you don't want to do, you can do selfishly in a way that you can own them. And and, and just and really build and manifest the person and the world that you want. And so that that is something that I fully believe is is within all of our power and it just takes it takes self awareness and it takes practice. And and so I think the bento in these community gatherings and these workshops are are just a way to really practically put that in people's hands.
Nicole Holland 33:35
I love it, everything about it. And so where again can people go to what website to to get involved with?
Yancey Strickler 33:44
Yeah, for that you can just go to my website why Strickler calm my first initial last name, and it's also in Bentoism.org
Nicole Holland 33:51
perfect as if you haven't already given us plenty of words of wisdom. Before we wrap again The floor is yours. So any final words of Wisdom, anything you want to really have my audience take away from being with you for the last half hour.
Yancey Strickler 34:08
Yeah, that we are at the, you know, those of us who are alive right now we have lived through the peak of a regime based on the maximization of financial self interest. That is the world around us today, we all felt how eternal that world seemed. And right now we're watching its demise. And its decline. And, and the responsibility, which is exciting and immense. But the responsibility for designing and building what comes after, this is going to rest on the shoulders of generations, X, Y, and Z. And those generations have a different belief system than others. You know, it's true that age changes people's beliefs, but I think these generations show a remarkably different set of beliefs. The question is as as they are, and as we are rebuilding, what is the foundation that we're doing that on? What what or assumption are we making differently than the people who made these decisions before. And I believe that core assumption should be that we are four dimensional beings, that only thinking of our self interest as now me, that can work but for only so long. If we want lasting prosperity, if we want real connection and meaning this, we have to see all four dimensions of ourselves and, and I fully believe that this will happen. I fully expect this to happen it, it's probably not going to be the bento language Exactly. But our our notion of self interest will expand because we will learn that it is in our self interest, and we do so that it benefits us. And so I think that out of the wreckage of this moment, I think this is the lesson that's going to stand out We'll be the foundation for what comes next.
Nicole Holland 36:02
Beautiful. Thank you so much.
And there you have it. Thanks again for tuning in, I realized there are about a million other things that you could have been doing over the past hour. And the fact that you chose to spend it listening to this podcast means the world to me. I would love to know your biggest takeaway from today's episode, so feel free to send it on social tagging me @TheNicoleHolland on Facebook or Instagram, or send me a message from my website, TheNicoleHolland.com. You'll also find show notes with the transcript from this and all other past and future podcast episodes on the website. And that URL one more time is TheNicoleHolland.com. If you'd like to take the things that you've been learning to the next level in your life, check out my meaningful mentorship experience options at MeaningfulMentorship.com To discover opportunities that will support you in embracing life more on your own terms, thanks to my podcasting goldmine team for the production of today's episode, and a special shout out to Effy Ceruti for composing the intro and outro music for this season. If you're looking for custom composed music for your own podcast, or any other aspect of strategy, design, production or promotion for your existing or new podcast, or if you'd like to incorporate strategic podcasts and guesting into your marketing plan, the podcasting goldmine team can help give us a ring at 218-GET-SEEN or contact me through the website for a custom quote. Coming up on the podcast you'll be meeting more incredible thought leaders and normal people living extraordinary lives because they've decided to consciously create the life of their dreams. Until next time, this is Nicole Holland signing off.